The Evolution of IPT: Why Tax Education is So Important with Chris Muntifering (Part 2)
In this episode of the SALTovation podcast, we continue our conversation with Chris Muntifering, Executive Director at the Institute for Professionals in Taxation. We explore the role of the Institute for Professionals in Taxation (IPT) and its unique position in the landscape of tax organizations, highlighting how it distinguishes itself from competitors like the Council of State Taxation. Chris discusses the rigorous process behind IPT's advocacy efforts, including the criteria for supporting cases that benefit its members and the importance of engaging younger professionals as the landscape of tax professionals continues to evolve.
Key Takeaways:
- The CMI program emphasizes the importance of both experience and education in taxation roles.
- IPT aims to support its members by providing resources and guiding them through tax issues.
- The process of submitting amicus brief requests is detailed and requires careful consideration.
- IPT is focused on education while other organizations may also engage in advocacy efforts.
- Engaging younger professionals is a key initiative for the future success of IPT.
- The CMI exam is designed to test both knowledge and practical experience in the field.
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Transcript
Welcome to Saltivation.
Speaker A:The Saltivation show is a podcast series featuring the leading voices in SALT where we talk about the issues and strategies to help you make sense of state and local tax.
Speaker A:I know you had kind of mentioned, and we've kind of talked about this and you know, as a 501C3, IPT's role is not to, you know, to lobby whatnot.
Speaker A:That's a no.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So any IRS examiner out there, that is not what they do.
Speaker A:We are affirmatively stating that how do you determine or do you determine just to either get involved in a case or again, not lobby, but kind of throw out your knowledge base or kind of the weight behind what the, what the institution means.
Speaker B:So the best example of that would be the amicus brief requests that will come through.
Speaker B:So we do have a process for that.
Speaker B:So by being, by being a friend of the court per se, we're not really taking a position in terms of advocating for a law change or a case or whatever the case or whatever it may be, but we can kind of throw a weight behind that saying we support the taxpayer in whatever case it may be.
Speaker B:So the way the process works for us is that we have, we have a legal committee, right?
Speaker B:And the legal committee takes on those requests that come in and there's a whole litany of requirements before they'll actually take a look at it.
Speaker B:And they'll make a recommendation to the board of governors about whether should get behind or not.
Speaker B:And there's some things that, you know, like there's a 45 day minimum rule that they have.
Speaker B:Obviously they just need time to look at it.
Speaker B:So we may, we may pass on a case because somebody who's asked for requests didn't give, it, didn't give the legal, I mean, I enough time to evaluate the case.
Speaker B:It's not that we were opposed to it, we just didn't have time to evaluate it.
Speaker B:And, and then the legal committee will make a decision whether that's in the best interest of the organization as a whole.
Speaker B:You know, it may be in the best interest of the requester, but it may not be in the best interest of other IBT members.
Speaker B:So you know, on, on its face, it may sound like it's a good, good thing to get behind, but if it's, if it's to the, if it's not to the benefit of the majority of the members, they're not going to do it.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of things that go into the process.
Speaker B:It's not, it's not slam dunk per se.
Speaker C:And then when they do it, it's a volunteer effort to draft that.
Speaker B:Correct, Correct.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:IPT doesn't have the resources to hire console.
Speaker B:And often they come, they come to the table with something prepared.
Speaker B:So that's, that's about as far as we get into the, the advocacy, if you will.
Speaker B:And it's not really an at all.
Speaker B:We're just, we're just, we're just supporting our members in that regard.
Speaker A:1.
Speaker A:So how would you say, you know, there's, you know, other state tax organizations out there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So how would you say that IPT is different than some of those organizations are?
Speaker A:You know, cost, for example, you know, the Council of State Taxation.
Speaker A:Does IPT view them as a competitor?
Speaker A:Are we all just trying to put out, you know, information and resources and build community around state, you know, state and local tax?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, to a certain extent, we don't consider IPT to be competitive cost.
Speaker B:I hope they would, they would do the same.
Speaker B:You know, at the end of the day, I mean, we both have the same objectives and we want to make sure that, that there's fair and uniform tax administration across the board.
Speaker B:How you go about it are maybe two different tracks and maybe have a different track than IBT has.
Speaker B:You know, we're focused on education, and they do education as well, of course, but they're also advocates, so that's fine.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, you have to understand there's just this one pool, this one bag of money that is going to get spent.
Speaker B:And we hope that, well, you spend your money with us, they hope that they spend the money with them.
Speaker B:So it's really what you choose.
Speaker B:It kind of reminds me when I was a kid, you know, growing up in a very humble home is that we had one cereal.
Speaker B:I like to go back to cereal because I worked for a cereal company and say, you know, my mother would open up the cupboard and say, cupboard.
Speaker B:And say, okay, this is what you're having.
Speaker B:This is your cereal.
Speaker B:We didn't have a choice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's what it is.
Speaker B:And it's kind of that way, you know, now.
Speaker B:So, you know, we know our members.
Speaker B:Typically they may, they may be told, you can go to one program this year.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:You decide which one you're going to.
Speaker B:And so, you know, obviously we hope they go to our program.
Speaker B:Well, we know that there's value in other organizations.
Speaker B:Well, they have to pick what's best for them.
Speaker B:But we try to create programs that will satisfy them to the best of their expectations.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And we take the feedback each time and try to evolve and modify our content to meet the needs of the community.
Speaker C:And I know like the annual meeting probably has the largest attendee.
Speaker C:Would you say group of attendees or no?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Sales Tax symposium is the largest.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I feel like years ago I went to it in Huntington beach and I feel like there were thousands of people there.
Speaker C:Was there ever that many or is that just a mis memory on my part?
Speaker B:Well, it might be a mis memory on your part, but I think there seems like there's a lot of people there because it's not just the registrants that are there.
Speaker B:If they bring their families, you know, spouses and you have kids and the hotel is really busy and it's full and it all seems like a lot of IPT people.
Speaker C:But yeah, because I can just remember going to things like, wow, there are a lot of people here.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But then, you know, with COVID and things like that, some things that tapered and it's nice to see people back.
Speaker C:I remember being in Austin a few years ago.
Speaker C: If that was: Speaker C:And it was when the Delta strain was coming out and we're all there and like.
Speaker C:But it was lovely to see people again.
Speaker C:And Jordan could be and went.
Speaker C:Did the do you there when he did the hand thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mix people.
Speaker C:That was awesome.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's something you wish you had recorded.
Speaker B:You can play again.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker C:That was magic.
Speaker C:He was just magic.
Speaker C:No, he is such a funny guy.
Speaker C:Jordan on yeah, we've had the very.
Speaker A:First podcast recorded and I've listened to it and it's dreadful.
Speaker A:Like it's as like you know someone who's speaking to it and has, you know, we've done since what, 80 something episodes.
Speaker A:It's like, no, I don't want to go back and witness that.
Speaker A:That was harder.
Speaker A:Covid sitting on the floor of my kids room while they were allowed to be in daycare.
Speaker A:So no thank you.
Speaker C:So what was the cereal you had in your house?
Speaker B:Probably.
Speaker B:What was it?
Speaker B:Whatever was on sale that week.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Because we had Cheerios.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Not honey, not Cheerios.
Speaker C:I don't think honey, that existed.
Speaker C:And I always wanted Captain Crunch and Froot Loops and I would major maybe get those.
Speaker C:And I don't know if those are.
Speaker C:That might be Kellogg's.
Speaker C:So it might have been a competition.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Generally no sugared cereal.
Speaker B:So I mean, because obviously those are more expensive.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:And my mom wouldn't buy them, but only on a rare occasion with a lot of begging.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker A:And we wouldn't want to not talk about the cmi.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So the Certified member of the institute designation is kind of a hallmark of ipt.
Speaker A:Can you walk us through about how this CMI program kind of came to be, why it's important, why the test is so hard?
Speaker A:Kind of walk us through the cmi, like, kind of the.
Speaker A:You know, the CMI in general, it's.
Speaker C:Got some street cred, I'll tell you that.
Speaker C:As someone who's a lawyer and a cpa, it's a good test.
Speaker C:I was impressed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the CMI actually started when IPT started the Institute for Professional Taxation.
Speaker B:So at that time, property tax folks on the corporate side tended to go to iwao, the International association of Assessing Officers Annual Conference.
Speaker B:So you'd have the assessors there, and then you'd have all the property tax people.
Speaker B:And so when they decided that, you know, the corporate property tax people really need to have their own organization, they created ipt.
Speaker B:But they also recognized that, you know, IWAO has very good designations.
Speaker B:We need to have one that kind of reflects who we are.
Speaker B:And so that's how the CMI and property tax was developed.
Speaker B:And the founding father said it basically has to reflect education, it has to reflect experience, and has to reflect the accomplishment of testing.
Speaker B:And so once it got established within property tax, and then as IPT expanded into the other disciplines, it just made sense to have designations in those disciplines as well.
Speaker B:And today, those designations are recognized across the board as something, you know, not.
Speaker B:Maybe I don't want to offend anybody.
Speaker B:CPAs, but, you know, it's kind of on that same level, if you will.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it just this.
Speaker B:The cmi, and I should say cmi, ccip.
Speaker B:Because the CCIP is the equivalent in the credits and incentives, it carries the same weight as the cmi.
Speaker B:You know, we say that it's a little bit different from the CPA exam, that we require experience.
Speaker B:You have to have five years of experience before you can take the exam.
Speaker B:And CPAs do not.
Speaker B:It was six months or nine months.
Speaker B:I give my daughter a hard time.
Speaker B:My daughter's a cpa.
Speaker B:And you got that before you even had the experience.
Speaker C:She's, what, going interesting, you know.
Speaker B:And, you know, as a lawyer, you can take the bar exam.
Speaker C:Oh, and you don't even know how to be a lawyer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we like to say the CMI can distinguish us from other designations.
Speaker B:And that we do require the experience, so.
Speaker C:Interesting.
Speaker C:Well, I felt like it was at Deloitte anyway, maybe, but I don't think at pw.
Speaker C:I was still a senior.
Speaker C:I left and I was a manager at Deloitte.
Speaker C:And I remember there was a decision because we kept hiring a lot of people, non traditional hires, right, to get good experience in sooner, not grow them from the beginning up.
Speaker C:And that was the pivot when state local became more of a national practice.
Speaker C:That was the way it was at pw.
Speaker C:And then Deloitte was doing the same when I joined them.
Speaker C:That was like a national practice, locally housed and yet a lot of non traditional hires.
Speaker C:And they weren't CPAs, but they were subject matter experts.
Speaker C:And so where are you going to get them in the slate?
Speaker C:And then of course, hiring attorneys, if you're not a CPA and you're a CPA firm, where do you give them a place for advancement?
Speaker C:So the CMI was a way that they recognized to get people to elevate.
Speaker C:So there was a requirement in order to have the upper designation at one point to have to take the cmi.
Speaker C:So we definitely put that constraint on employees to elevate them, motivate them to get credentialed in their way.
Speaker C:And it gave them an opportunity without being a CPA to advance in the organization.
Speaker C:So I know they came up with like the director title, the principal title versus partner.
Speaker C:And it allowed people that are subject matter experts to stay within the organization.
Speaker C:So I know it gave some credit to Deloitte anyway because it was a constraint for a long time and a path to upper advancement.
Speaker C:Honestly, rather than being a non CPA because you're finance, so you're not a cpa, right.
Speaker C:You're not qualified unless you do something else, right?
Speaker B:Well, yeah.
Speaker B:So I think most of the firms do require, not require, but they will allow the CMI as the designation that gets them to the managerial level.
Speaker B:I can't speak for them directly because I've never been in direct contact with them.
Speaker B:And tell me this, this is what.
Speaker C:I don't even know.
Speaker C:I've been gone for a long time.
Speaker C:But I know that used to be an issue was like it was a bone of contention.
Speaker C:I remember when I came in because I was not a cpa, even though I could have sat, I did it, I was a lawyer, but it was like, I'm in a CPA organization, I need to become a cpa.
Speaker C:Like I can't just be a lawyer.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:And then we hired a bunch of lawyers and Lawyers changed the character of the big four or big eight or whatever we were at the time.
Speaker C:Like, then they wanted lawyers, but at the time they didn't really want lawyers.
Speaker C:Like, you know, as they evolved as an organization, they're like, we need these people with these subject matter competencies.
Speaker C:And so they didn't always have a direct path in accounting to tax, as you didn't either your finance, real estate.
Speaker C:That's not tax like you said.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yeah.
Speaker C:That's why I know we cared about that when I was at Deloitte.
Speaker C:I don't know how much they still do, but I know that was.
Speaker C:It's important.
Speaker C:I know the exam is amazingly difficult and it has value.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I know when I got my CMI and I was in the corporate tax department, I did get recognized for doing that just in the same manner that others did when they got their cpa.
Speaker B:So I know it's not just the advocacy firms, but also corporations are recognized in CMI as well.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it is a tough test.
Speaker B:Well, there's two components to it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's the written component and then there's.
Speaker B:It's a tough exam in each of the disciplines.
Speaker B:It's hard and I can't share the past.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Because we're just not allowed to do that.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:But for the written exam, it's a, It's a five hour exam and most people take the full five hours.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, no, I was shocked how hard it was.
Speaker C:I'm like, oh my gosh.
Speaker C:And what I learned because I did not pass the written, so I have to retake it.
Speaker C:I passed the oral, so I haven't gotten it myself because I don't remember the cases and the standards.
Speaker C:It's like when I came to the conclusion, I was like, man, I got a lot of respect for this exam.
Speaker C:I got the opportunity to take it.
Speaker C:I think it was great to do that for my own personal, like, understanding.
Speaker C:But it really does give you the tenets and which these rules are based upon.
Speaker C:And if you don't understand the history, you don't understand how the laws got from here to there.
Speaker C:And I think that's super important.
Speaker C:So I think that legitimizes it in my mind.
Speaker C:And I would value that with an employee hire.
Speaker C:If they weren't a traditional cpa, I would say you got something because you did a cmi that has some value to me.
Speaker C:So it taught me as someone who was like, well, I don't need these extra things, how valuable that knowledge was.
Speaker C:So kudos to the Organization for having that.
Speaker C:It really is a big deal.
Speaker C:And I think it teaches people important stuff, honestly, that helps them build their career.
Speaker C:So I think it's a really valuable exercise to go through.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I think there is a misunderstanding and people that want to take the exam, they think, well, I'll take the schools and that should be enough.
Speaker B:But the schools are not, are not prep courses.
Speaker B:That's kind of the basis of the cmi.
Speaker B:If you're going to be a well rounded professional in that particular discipline and you're going to be designated, you have to do, you have to be more than book smart.
Speaker B:You got to have some experience behind you and hopefully you have credible experience that's going to help you with that exam.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, the verbal was, you know, easy for me because I've been doing practicing a long time.
Speaker C:I'm like, da da, da, da, da, da da.
Speaker C:So it was a, it was a written where I was like, ooh, I don't remember some of this, you know.
Speaker C:And it really taught me a little slap on my wrist to say, you should learn your history.
Speaker C:You've forgotten that it's important.
Speaker B:And I would never say that the oral is easier, but the oral is testing a little bit.
Speaker C:Oh, I didn't think it was easy.
Speaker C:It's just the practical.
Speaker C:It's the practical, it's where the experience really weighs in of understanding.
Speaker C:If you don't have experience, you're not gonna be able to do the written or the oral at all.
Speaker C:No way.
Speaker C:Because it's a fact pattern that's very convoluted and you're like, how do I solve this?
Speaker C:Problems.
Speaker C:Problems.
Speaker C:Yeah, no, it's, it was difficult.
Speaker C:Agreed.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And it's just not taking that fact pattern, but you have to present that fact pattern to the committee.
Speaker B:So that's, you know, I think that often gets lost on the applicants.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, Well, I know the content and I know the fact pattern.
Speaker B:But wait, there's this third component is you have to present your position to this panel of committee members.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, no, I thought it was phenomenal because as a, as a practitioner.
Speaker A:As internal person, you're just not going to sit at a desk and be like, okay, I know the answer.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker C:You never know nowhere.
Speaker A:Like, right.
Speaker A:Like that research has to go somewhere.
Speaker A:You have to communicate it in some form or fashion.
Speaker A:So I think it's a very, when you talk about the CMI that you have to have five years of experience to even take the thing that is a, a Large component of what our job is, is, you know, communicating our results.
Speaker A:Good, bad, or ugly, Right?
Speaker C:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:And so I think that's.
Speaker A:I think that's admirable that the test acknowledges that skill set and that is part of how you're judged on, you know, the.
Speaker A:That credential.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:No, it's really good.
Speaker C:Really, really, really good.
Speaker A:And so, Chris, as we wrap up, is there something about IPT that you want our listeners to know that we maybe haven't touched on, other than to make sure that you remember to join?
Speaker B:Well, we just recently engaged in a rebranding of the organization.
Speaker B:So if you go to the website, you'll see it's much different than it was before.
Speaker B:And people don't realize this until you tell them, if you look at the logo, the logo has changed.
Speaker B:You remember the old logo with the.
Speaker B:So funny.
Speaker C:I was wondering.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:With the balance, what do they call that?
Speaker C:It's like the scales adjusted.
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:Thank you for that.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, those are gone.
Speaker B:So it's been rebranded.
Speaker B:And part of this has been that, you know, we recognize that our membership basis is changing.
Speaker B:So, you know, the younger folks are coming up and we tell them, this is going to be your organization someday.
Speaker B:This is, this is not the people who are, who are leading the organization today.
Speaker B:So there's a big initiative now to get younger folks involved in the organization.
Speaker B:And there's multiple ways of doing that.
Speaker B:You know, you can, you can serve on committees.
Speaker B:There's always some room for a committee member somewhere.
Speaker B:The corporate people, you know, we, we, we don't know they have challenges in travel, but we're always looking for corporate people.
Speaker B:We need that perspective at our program.
Speaker B:And if, if you're a corporate speaker, you know, your registration fee is, is waived.
Speaker B:So that, that's a big chunk of money that's going to, that's going to benefit you.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So, I mean, get involved in the organization with.
Speaker B:That's, that's our biggest push right now because obviously we're all aging, you know, you know, we're getting older, we're getting grayer.
Speaker C:I color my hair.
Speaker A:I'm still 27 in my head, but.
Speaker C:My head doesn't really show.
Speaker C:I have very little gray.
Speaker B:So we really want, we really want younger folks to get involved in the organization.
Speaker B:We have a subcommittee now.
Speaker B:It's called the Emerging Leaders.
Speaker B:And it sort of was young professionals, but it doesn't have to be young professionals.
Speaker B:It has to be anybody who's new to the organization that wants to have an impact and where the future of the organization is.
Speaker A:All right, Chris, well, thank you so much.
Speaker A:We do really appreciate the organization.
Speaker A:We are participants, we are members, we are teachers, we are speakers.
Speaker A:We enjoy that time to get together and so thank you for your work with ipt and this has been saltivation.
Speaker A:Till next time.
Speaker A:This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended, nor should it be relied upon as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice.
Speaker A:You should consult with a competent professional to discuss specifics of your situation and the applicability of the information presented.
